Feathercoin daemon and wallet production version 0.17.0.2

Difficulty Discussion - Fork Update - Bushstar


  • | Tip DigitalDoom

    Oh crap!!

    I just downloaded this one the other day…now downloaded it again. Thought the new one was released.

    Headaches, headaches, headaches!

    LOL…oh well, getting in good practice I suppose 🙂


  • Regular Member | Tip zerodrama

    [quote name=“ChristianRiesen” post=“2733” timestamp=“1368354328”]
    I would strongly advise against the fork. To give you a sample of the browser world: IE 6 still lives. That Zombie wont die. Getting everyone, every last person, to switch will not be an easy task and there will be stragglers, people downloading it from old links and mirrors, etc.
    [/quote]

    #1. People think IE is a part of the computer. They don’t update.
    #2. Morons in IT still build for it. So no one feels pressured to update.
    #3. IE is a browser for the WHOLE INTERNET. No one wants their browsing experience to change drastically.
    #4. IE does not tell you to update nor does Microsoft visit its forums and beg people to update.

    We behave exactly opposite. Stragglers will download so as to be able to continue sending money. Being lenient will only encourage laziness, which is precisely the problem with IE. Microsoft feels no pressure to support standards because the users show no interest in a better experience for the developer even if it would mean much less cost.

    [quote]
    My second point against it is that it is premature. Just a reminder, the difficult is set to plummet from 188 to 22. That drop will make the traffic on FTC skyrocket again.
    [/quote]

    Going down over 20 days is not plummeting. It’s constipation.

    The reason for the fork is the amount of time necessary for it to adjust. 20 days if 700 MHs is the average, the difficulty changed about 5 days ago. But we only have 350 MHs. That means it’s actually 40 days. And the difficulty will drop again after that for another week.

    No. One. Wants. To. Wait. 40. Days. When. They. Can. Make. Profit. Tomorrow. Elsewhere. So. That. 40. Days. Becomes. 80. Days.

    To get people to come back you would need the difficulty to change at the latest in the next 5 days. 40 days / 5 days = 8. You would need NEARLY EIGHT TIMES the users to get the difficulty to change. But then the difficulty wouldn’t be 22. It would be more like 88. Which is only a 2x gain over what it is now, and then it would go back up. And this would happen again.

    This situation is a pretzel. Pretzels don’t loosen by themselves.

    [quote]
    Look at bitcoin, the difficulty skyrocketed in the past 2 months alone. Nobody talks about a hard fork there (and is taken serious).
    [/quote]

    And So. Did. The. Price. And then BTC crashed and Bitcoiners came to us. The people who are kicking FTC are former BTCers. They are not NEW PEOPLE.

    [quote]
    I for one will keep building my mining rigs and let them push onward. We can cut those days down with our raw power and dedication to the coin 🙂
    [/quote]

    You can only cut those days down with math. Raw power isn’t enough.


  • | Tip Bushstar

    This may be of interest. It is a Bitcoin hard fork wish list. I have to wonder if the change to the block hashing algorithm would stop current ASICs from working.

    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist


  • Regular Member | Tip svennand

    [quote name=“Bushstar” post=“2827” timestamp=“1368388760”]
    This may be of interest. It is a Bitcoin hard fork wish list. I have to wonder if the change to the block hashing algorithm would stop current ASICs from working.

    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
    [/quote]

    That would have been legen…waitforit…dary
    Just the expression on all the asics owners face=P


  • | Tip UKMark

    [quote name=“Bushstar” post=“2827” timestamp=“1368388760”]
    This may be of interest. It is a Bitcoin hard fork wish list. I have to wonder if the change to the block hashing algorithm would stop current ASICs from working.

    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
    [/quote]

    Application Specific v Changed Specification
    Hmm, might well throw a spanner in the works :o


  • | Tip DigitalDoom

    [quote name=“Bushstar” post=“2827” timestamp=“1368388760”]
    This may be of interest. It is a Bitcoin hard fork wish list. I have to wonder if the change to the block hashing algorithm would stop current ASICs from working.

    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
    [/quote]

    We could only hope for such a thing.

    Of course, it wouldn’t be long before adjustments were made and ASICs were back in action…just like it’s only a matter of time before they are taught to mine scrypt.

    Would be hilarious though to see the panic from those who paid a fortune on multiple ASIC hashing monsters.


  • | Tip Tuck Fheman

    [quote name=“archminer” post=“2746” timestamp=“1368359937”]

    Can’t agree more. And I agree that you should take your time to come up with the best solution. However in the meanwhile please update the stats page to tell people that you care, and you are preparing a solution, and therefore the next difficulty adjustment is not months away. This will give people confidence, and it will help spread the word that a new version is upcoming, so that when it actually comes out more people will know about it and the transition will be more smooth.

    IMHO you should also link to the life support thread in the stats page, to show people not only the devs care, the community cares too.
    [/quote]

    Observation : Over at bitcointalk, I haven’t seen a feathercoin post on page one of alternate cryptocurrencies in 2 days. I can’t post there yet, but I read there a lot and was surprised.

    There was a lot of negative talk about FTC in the other topics however. So I agree with the above statement 100%. If I were unaware of this forum and were holding FTC … I’d probably think it vanished if I did nothing other scan page one of alternate cryptocurrencies [url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0[/url].


  • | Tip UKMark

    [quote name=“DigitalDoom” post=“2830” timestamp=“1368389391”]
    [quote author=Bushstar link=topic=363.msg2827#msg2827 date=1368388760]
    This may be of interest. It is a Bitcoin hard fork wish list. I have to wonder if the change to the block hashing algorithm would stop current ASICs from working.

    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
    [/quote]

    We could only hope for such a thing.

    Of course, it wouldn’t be long before adjustments were made and ASICs were back in action…just like it’s only a matter of time before they are taught to mine scrypt.

    Would be hilarious though to see the panic from those who paid a fortune on multiple ASIC hashing monsters.
    [/quote]

    If it can be done via software that is and doesn’t require a whole new IC :o


  • | Tip justabitoftime

    [quote name=“Tuck Fheman” post=“2836” timestamp=“1368389597”]
    [quote author=archminer link=topic=363.msg2746#msg2746 date=1368359937]

    Can’t agree more. And I agree that you should take your time to come up with the best solution. However in the meanwhile please update the stats page to tell people that you care, and you are preparing a solution, and therefore the next difficulty adjustment is not months away. This will give people confidence, and it will help spread the word that a new version is upcoming, so that when it actually comes out more people will know about it and the transition will be more smooth.

    IMHO you should also link to the life support thread in the stats page, to show people not only the devs care, the community cares too.
    [/quote]

    Observation : Over at bitcointalk, I haven’t seen a feathercoin post on page one of alternate cryptocurrencies in 2 days. I can’t post there yet, but I read there a lot and was surprised.

    There was a lot of negative talk about FTC in the other topics however. So I agree with the above statement 100%. If I were unaware of this forum and were holding FTC … I’d probably think it vanished if I did nothing other scan page one of alternate cryptocurrencies [url=https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0]https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?board=67.0[/url].
    [/quote]

    Consider the quality of conversation in the alt currency section, I don’t know if this is a bad thing. Once Bush gets us back on track with the fork, we’ll have plenty to talk about. We have so many projects already wrapping up, we’re about to show them Feathercoin is the trend.


  • | Tip Tuck Fheman

    [quote name=“Bushstar” post=“2827” timestamp=“1368388760”]
    This may be of interest. It is a Bitcoin hard fork wish list. I have to wonder if the change to the block hashing algorithm would stop current ASICs from working.

    https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist
    [/quote]

    From : [url=https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist]https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Hardfork_Wishlist[/url]

    [quote]Difficulty adjustment periods should overlap (prevent potential ‘timejacking’) Note: An ideal adjustment algorithm would ensure there is no easy dispute on “next target” for any block. Eg, [i][b]it should not be possible for MinerX to set his block time 2 hours in the future to achieve a slightly higher difficulty and win any same-block-height race by default[/b][/i]. [/quote]

    This [i][b]is[/b][/i] possible currently?


  • Regular Member | Tip zerodrama

    @Tuck I highly doubt that’s possible. It’s a network remember. Most of the network would reject such blocks. I don’t think it would even work on pools. You can’t just set your own difficulty and expect the network to honor it.


  • | Tip Tuck Fheman

    The discussion page was interesting on the bitcoin hardfork wishlist, especially this part …

    [url=https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:Hardfork_Wishlist#Proposals_which_reduce_security]https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Talk:Hardfork_Wishlist#Proposals_which_reduce_security[/url]


  • | Tip Tuck Fheman

    [quote name=“zerodrama” post=“2852” timestamp=“1368392168”]
    @Tuck I highly doubt that’s possible.
    [/quote]

    Which makes me even more curious. Why does it need to be fixed?


  • | Tip UKMark

    [quote name=“Tuck Fheman” post=“2857” timestamp=“1368392760”]
    [quote author=zerodrama link=topic=363.msg2852#msg2852 date=1368392168]
    @Tuck I highly doubt that’s possible.
    [/quote]

    Which makes me even more curious. Why does it need to be fixed?
    [/quote]

    Highly intelligent crypto geeks, thinking up the impossible possible, so it has to be fixed 🙂


  • Regular Member | Tip zerodrama

    [quote name=“Tuck Fheman” post=“2857” timestamp=“1368392760”]
    [quote author=zerodrama link=topic=363.msg2852#msg2852 date=1368392168]
    @Tuck I highly doubt that’s possible.
    [/quote]

    Which makes me even more curious. Why does it need to be fixed?
    [/quote]

    My bad. I read it backwards. The idea being that you could fake the timing of a block to make it seem like you worked harder when there is a dispute over blocks that are the same length as others. I still think it’s difficult, but it’s an interesting thing to look at.


  • | Tip Ilocans

    Hi

    I do not know all the specs of the coins but using my logic, why not simply take the min between 2016 block or 3 days after the last change. I remembered that the difficulty use to increase ever 2 or 3 days so I think it is a reasonnable delay ?


  • Regular Member | Tip ChristianRiesen

    @zerodrama: I get the different view, but it seems to me that there are two colliding world views. Those that think 20 days is an eternity that makes feathercoin die a horrible death, and the rest.

    Difficulty is an equalizer. I don’t know your background, so please don’t take offense if I make this a bit simpler. Currency markets work on the same basic principle of supply and demand like everything else, just a bit more abstracted. With cryptos it gets even more abstract (and technical where even people who know about the subject get knots in their brains). The difficulty slows down (or speeds up) the generation of currency, which both means the value can rise and fall with it, like a normal currency would. If you look at some of the many sites that track the coins and their values, you will see patterns that are close mirrors to what other currencies went through.

    My overall approach (and again, just my humble opinion) is to sit it out. This in my view will be much better for the coin and its stability than anything else.


  • Regular Member | Tip Markus1337

    Very well explained, learning everyday ^^ thank you


  • Spammer Banned | Tip Kevlar

    The problem with ‘sitting it out’ is the lower the hashrate drops, the longer we have to wait.

    Right now, the time to wait is increasing FASTER than the time it will take… which means at this rate we’ll never reach it.

    So do we have a plan of attack yet, or is this sill in the planning phase? It seems to me a simple time to retarget plus a limit on the change is the easiest road there, is it not?


  • | Tip DigitalDoom

    [quote name=“ChristianRiesen” post=“2877” timestamp=“1368395047”]
    @zerodrama: I get the different view, but it seems to me that there are two colliding world views. Those that think 20 days is an eternity that makes feathercoin die a horrible death, and the rest.

    Difficulty is an equalizer. I don’t know your background, so please don’t take offense if I make this a bit simpler. Currency markets work on the same basic principle of supply and demand like everything else, just a bit more abstracted. With cryptos it gets even more abstract (and technical where even people who know about the subject get knots in their brains). The difficulty slows down (or speeds up) the generation of currency, which both means the value can rise and fall with it, like a normal currency would. If you look at some of the many sites that track the coins and their values, you will see patterns that are close mirrors to what other currencies went through.

    My overall approach (and again, just my humble opinion) is to sit it out. This in my view will be much better for the coin and its stability than anything else.
    [/quote]

    What do you mean by “sit it out”?

    I think your “two worlds colliding” view is a little short sided. I think there’s something much more dynamic at play here.

    Sure, 20 days isn’t an eternity on the grand scheme of things. However, it’s impossible to know if/when the next big crash (and yes, I know a crash from a correction) in crypto might happen.

    A few questions I think are important to ask ourselves:

    If the major player (Bitcoin, obviously) should suddenly crash to $6 or even less, how many of the new coins (such as FTC) will survive until the world shows renewed interest in crypto a few years from now (if ever)?

    Could FTC survive the next 2-3 years of no one knowing what the Hell it is, or no one caring? Doubtful!

    What if that crash comes in a week and we’re all “Sitting it out” for 20 more days?

    I know we all hope this recent boost in crypto popularity and recognition will last forever, but there is no guarantee that it will happen. I personally think that it’s important right now for any new coin wanting to be more than a “grab-n-go” money-maker to get in the lime-light and do everything possible to stay there. Any coin that’s right now being viewed as a “dying coin” (whether accurately or not) by “Mister Joe Public” is sure to be dead in 2-3 years should a detrimental crash hit the crypto-currency world tomorrow morning. I doubt many of those on the FTC development team are in a position to withstand a 2-3 year hiatus, waiting for crypto-currency to come back in style with the general public.

    I just think that right now is a really bad time to be gambling on whether 20 days is enough to kill a coin or not…why take the chance?

    I do however think that right now, (after the unexpected, fast and furious rise and fall of FTC) is a good time to be catching a breath, figuring out what went right and what went wrong…strengthening the weak areas and preparing for a bigger and better FTC to unleash on the crypto world. I believe that is pretty much what Bushstar and others are doing right now.

    While this is nothing to be jury-rigged together or fixed with a duct tape patch job, it is important I think, to get the ball rolling again ASAP. Who the Hell knows what the crypto world will look like in another month or so? I, for one, don’t want to be “sitting it out” until then and hoping for the best.

    (my apologies if I’ve mistaken your meaning of the term “sit-it-out”…or anything else. I have a difficult time understanding or grasping a person’s intent or the context of phrases when I read text. I often stick my proverbial foot in my mouth because of something I read and mistook to mean something completely different from the writer’s intent. Really sucks bad when it’s a text from my wife that I’ve misunderstood! ;))