FTC's future
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@Kevlar… Please. You know that wasn’t very fair, as much as it needed to be heard. Things can always be said differently but get the same point across.
Do you mean to stop production of coins in Feathercoin? We should never change the inflation model of Feathercoin as doing so is unfair to those that have and have not bought in. Making a new chain off of the Feathercoin chain is fine but certain things should be left untouched in Feathercoin like the inflation model.
Might I try reword what Kevlar said?
- I don’t think anyone in the crypto space is qualified to be honest. It’s a multidisciplinary field which has only just come to life. This is why it takes more then 1 person to lead a a coin.
- If we changed the algo and the intention was never made publicly aware at launch, I don’t see how changing the release schedule or inflation model is any different.
- By reducing total amount of coins or stopping production all together, it will do nothing less than increase the “value” of the remaining tokens (not necessarily price in the short term). This works in favor of the long time holders and will incentive people to mine while they can.
- Enough time has passed now to prove that current inflation models were not perfect, in fact, detrimental to public adoption.
- There are no**permanent changes** because change itself is permanent. It behooves the industrialist to research and the investor to be vigilant. - Ralph L. Woods
Unfortunately, educating people about phenomena that are counter-intuitive, not-so-easy to remember, and suggest our individual lack of human control (for starters) can seem like an uphill battle in the war of ideas.
So we sally forth into a kind of wilderness, an economic fairyland. We are myth busters in a world where people crave myths more than reality. Why do they so readily embrace untruth? Primarily because the immediate costs of doing so are so low and the psychic benefits are so high. - http://fee.org/authors/detail/ralph-l-woods
_Decentralization, n. _The security assumption that a nineteen year old in Hangzhou and someone who is maybe in the UK, and maybe not, have not yet decided to collude with each other. https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/
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- STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING RIGHT NOW AND READ THIS -
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/06/19/mining/
I’m not even halfway through it but this is an absolute must read regardless of where it is going with its theory.
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It’s exactly this thinking that got us into this situation and it goes against everything we’re working to do.
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@Bushstar:**[Edit: Text partially removed as it violated forum rule: Section 1, Rule 3] **Everything is officially up for debate, and nothing will be considered sacred, untouchable, unchangeable, or undo-able and there’s nothing you can say or do to stop us. Get used to the idea that the inflation model can and will be touched, along with everything else that anyone sees fit to experiment with, and that it will STILL be “Feathercoin”.
If you want to contribute to this conversation in a meaningful way, try addressing the problem for a change with actual solutions, not just the refusal to consider REALLY good ones. That’s just counter productive.
No, never touch the inflation model or you are in breech of an unspoken contract. Can you not see how unfair that is on those who did and did not buy in? Many other coins changed their inflation model to make the coin more scarce and they did that out of greed. I though you would understand the importance of this.
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It’s exactly this thinking that got us into this situation and it goes against everything we’re working to do.
[Edit: Text partially removed as it violated forum rule: Section 1, Rule 3]
@Bushstar: [Edit: Text partially removed as it violated forum rule: Section 1, Rule 3] Everything is officially up for debate, and nothing will be considered sacred, untouchable, unchangeable, or undo-able and there’s nothing you can say or do to stop us. Get used to the idea that the inflation model can and will be touched, along with everything else that anyone sees fit to experiment with, and that it will STILL be “Feathercoin”.
If you want to contribute to this conversation in a meaningful way, try addressing the problem for a change with actual solutions, not just the refusal to consider REALLY good ones. That’s just counter productive.
I have put more time and money into this project than anyone else, what you said above is very unfair to me. I’m a nice guy honestly and try not to upset people which is why I think that I clash with you.
Putting a change of inflation model to the community is an easy win if the coin is going to become more scarce. I have seen many communities vote for this and their motives are in the wrong place. The hope is that the value will go up but what you lose is trust. You can never trust developers who change the inflation model with your money. Who knows what they will do in future. Bitcoin could not double the mint rate, this would make coins worth less, it is equally unfair to go the other way.
Changing the inflation model will lose trust and make us a joke. If people want to do this then I am out.
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I’m still trying to get through that crazy document and it very well might have a better solution BUT… untill I understand it what I have below is my current opinion.
Ok, so we have a small handful of dedicated early miners, holders, etc but, we lost the greater portion of our investors with the btc-e delisting. Our 24 Volume has never recovered. I thought the delisting was gonna be good and we would stop been held down. The assumption was, ftc was been manipulated…
But that wasn’t the case it seems…
Btc-e was keeping us afloat, i hate to say it but its true. We tanked after btc-e dropped us.
The investors, which were the btc-e traders, which were the majority of our holders, dumped and bailed.
Now the coins are centralised into the hands of the true believers.
So I still stand by the statement that its only fair to halt coin production.
Its in the hands of the few but they are the true investors now.
This benfits only them if we stop or lessen or cut it shorter in regards to the coins inflation.
Some questions I have though is this.
When does ftc stop been produced? How many decades from now? 10 or is it 2, what is it? I don’t honestly remember.
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I have put more time and money into this project than anyone else, what you said above is very unfair to me. I’m a nice guy honestly and try not to upset people which is why I think that I clash with you.
Putting a change of inflation model to the community is an easy win if the coin is going to become more scarce. I have seen many communities vote for this and their motives are in the wrong place. The hope is that the value will go up but what you lose is trust. You can never trust developers who change the inflation model with your money. Who knows what they will do in future. Bitcoin could not double the mint rate, this would make coins worth less, it is equally unfair to go the other way.
Changing the inflation model will lose trust and make us a joke. If people want to do this then I am out.
Well, if you do leave us. If the coin doesn’t get destroyed and it rockets in value in the future. You know you have a lot of people who will throw large amounts of ftc at you in the hopes you will come back.
If price is a measure of trust. Then we will bring you back with the knowladge that ftc finally kicked the butt out of litecoin.
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I must admit my first thought is that a move like this would damage how we are percieved, I’m still not convinced it wouldn’t. I would however be concerned that we are suffering from some sort of spotlight syndrome. We are no longer in the spotlight, this is our (the communities) technology and we should be here to experiment and serve the community. We can do things other coins can’t. If the best case for our survival and therefore the community’s survival is something as bat shit crazy as this, then perhaps admitting we got things wrong and take steps to fix them is the most honest thing to do.
finally kicked the shit out of litecoin.
This isn’t feathercoin’s way. No shit needs to be kicked even metaphorically for us to win.
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‘Light’ reading on PoS for anyone interested.
https://blog.ethereum.org/2014/11/25/proof-stake-learned-love-weak-subjectivity/
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Feathercoin
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Inflation model is badly set up, there is enough coins in circulation already.
There will be enough time to anybody stack up as many FTC as they want, like half year maybe, before we cut it.
Kevlar is right, you can leave your head in the sand and die or do something.
I see plenty of people to support this idea. Mining suck, no matter with what hardware.
It was fun in 2013 but those days are over.
I sold my GPUs.
Mining is waste.
Unnecessary waste.
With proposed POS solution all we nees is few rPI nodes to maintain healthly and eco-friendly network.
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Inflation model is badly set up, there is enough coins in circulation already.
There will be enough time to anybody stack up as many FTC as they want, like half year maybe, before we cut it.
Kevlar is right, you can leave your head in the sand and die or do something.I see plenty of people to support this idea. Mining suck, no matter with what hardware.
It was fun in 2013 but those days are over.
I sold my GPUs.
Mining is waste.
Unnecessary waste.With proposed POS solution all we nees is few rPI nodes to maintain healthly and eco-friendly network.
You will not find anyone to buy into a coin that has tried to force scarcity, many have tried this and ultimately it has marked the end. Communities do jump on to ideas like reducing the block reward as they perceive financial reward when in reality the long term market position gets worse as no one will buy into this. Why would you buy into a coin that desperately is trying to increase its value for existing holders and force future buyers to pay more.
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You will not find anyone to buy into a coin that has tried to force scarcity, many have tried this and ultimately it has marked the end. Communities do jump on to ideas like reducing the block reward as they perceive financial reward when in reality the long term market position gets worse as no one will buy into this. Why would you buy into a coin that desperately is trying to increase its value for existing holders and force future buyers to pay more.
Your assumptions are wrong, there is nothing more desperate than sticking with failed model.
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Your assumptions are wrong, there is nothing more desperate than sticking with failed model.
What is wrong with the model all of a sudden?
The only reason people support this move is to see scarcity introduced to push the price up. This is greed and is a bad motivation for people.
0% PoS gives no incentive to mint stake blocks. Exchanges and services will remove PoS from their systems and the only people generating those blocks will be those unlocking their wallets to send some coins. The result will be that they lose access to some of their coins while the block is being confirmed. Ghostlander tried 0% PoS with Orb and got bad results.
Stopping coin production on Feathercoin will ultimately see a decline in market value as people dump on such a desperate move. Any gain will be short term, this has happened to other coins. Such a move is not unprecedented so you can do some research and find the results of such efforts before. We need to find some smarter solutions still.
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I was suggesting to reduce market cap from 300M to 100M half year back, I just think 300M is unnecessary many coins.
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Well. Lets think about all this for a few days and see what we come up with.
I think everyone should go out and do as much research as possible cause right now we all have a lot of ideas and opinions.
The most important thing of all though is getting in that core first and foremost. That has a ton of features and needs to be in.
So, Lizhi’s core and the ACP issue. What shall we do? Lets tackle that, then move on to the next latest and greatest thing.
Go team.
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No, never touch the inflation model or you are in breech of an unspoken contract. Can you not see how unfair that is on those who did and did not buy in? Many other coins changed their inflation model to make the coin more scarce and they did that out of greed. I though you would understand the importance of this.
You’re in breach of the ‘unspoken contract’ every time you make any change. Yet many have been made. You obviously don’t understand the importance of being able to make changes, or how little your opinion matters when doing so. Your argument is completely invalid when drug out into the light of reality and examined closely, and matters not at all to the change being made. You are not in control of what the community does with the coin. You can have your opinion like everyone else can, but no one is going to tolerate you telling us what we can and cannot do, especially when you provide no justification for your decisions.
I have put more time and money into this project than anyone else, what you said above is very unfair to me. I’m a nice guy honestly and try not to upset people which is why I think that I clash with you.
Putting a change of inflation model to the community is an easy win if the coin is going to become more scarce. I have seen many communities vote for this and their motives are in the wrong place. The hope is that the value will go up but what you lose is trust. You can never trust developers who change the inflation model with your money. Who knows what they will do in future. Bitcoin could not double the mint rate, this would make coins worth less, it is equally unfair to go the other way.
Changing the inflation model will lose trust and make us a joke. If people want to do this then I am out.
[Edit: Text partially removed as it violated forum rule: Section 1, Rule 3]
Your time and money mean nothing to anyone when what you do goes against what the market is demanding. They don’t entitle you to a position of power, and they don’t make you any more important than anyone else here, and you lose your status as decision maker when you fail to make decisions, or repeatedly make poor ones, as you have demonstrated a track record of doing.
You’ve made a bunch of assertions with nothing to back them up, assertions which do not align with standard economic models, nor do they play out in the real world.
Time and time again we’ve believed that you had a clue you know what you’re talking about with regards to this, but now I’m calling you out: Prove what you’re saying. Quit spouting unfounded opinion and back what you’re saying with some evidence.
People want this, so I guess you’re out, which is just personal incredulity.
You will not find anyone to buy into a coin that has tried to force scarcity, many have tried this and ultimately it has marked the end. Communities do jump on to ideas like reducing the block reward as they perceive financial reward when in reality the long term market position gets worse as no one will buy into this. Why would you buy into a coin that desperately is trying to increase its value for existing holders and force future buyers to pay more.
I cannot believe anyone would believe a lie as obvious as this one when we have countless counter-examples.
I mean obvious logical fallacies aside (the counter example of ‘no one will’ is ‘just one person who did’), nothing in what you just said is actually coherent. So what if communities do jump on ideas? This isn’t about making communities jump, it’s about blockchain security and economic solutions. Your question is addressed by the laws of supply and demand, which you seem to have no understanding of. “Why would someone pay more for something that is in increasing demand but decreasing supply?” The answer is because the market will bear the price.
Now if your argument is that demand is going down, then you’re actually arguing against inflation anyway. So either way, you’ve made an argument for decreasing inflation. This is basic economics dude. It’s also an example of a ‘false cause’ logical fallacy, because it presumes that relationship between two things means that one is the cause of the other’.
What is wrong with the model all of a sudden?
The only reason people support this move is to see scarcity introduced to push the price up. This is greed and is a bad motivation for people.
0% PoS gives no incentive to mint stake blocks. Exchanges and services will remove PoS from their systems and the only people generating those blocks will be those unlocking their wallets to send some coins. The result will be that they lose access to some of their coins while the block is being confirmed. Ghostlander tried 0% PoS with Orb and got bad results.
Stopping coin production on Feathercoin will ultimately see a decline in market value as people dump on such a desperate move. Any gain will be short term, this has happened to other coins. Such a move is not unprecedented so you can do some research and find the results of such efforts before. We need to find some smarter solutions still.
All of the sudden? Nothing. As far as I can tell the model has been sick since the start of 2014. Why are we just now finally deciding to do something about it in 2015? Because we kept thinking you knew what you were doing, and you were going to do something about it. We’ve now lost that believe due to lack of evidence and a continued push for bad decisions. Like NeoScrypt. You just made a ‘loaded question’ logical fallacy.
You assert greed is a bad motivator for people, yet it motivates people to get up and do their jobs every day. This is an example of a ‘black or white’ logical fallacy, because there are more options besides greed being the motivation, and that greed is always a bad motivator. Neither has been demonstrated to be true.
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Neither of the two assertions made are true, I’ve spent much time dispelling the myth that no one will stake, and that they have to lose access to their coins. Neither of these things are true, nor is it true that you have to leave your wallet unencrypted or even open, and if you had been participating in the team discussions we’ve been having you would know exactly why these things aren’t true because their actual mechanics have been discussed in great depth.
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And if Ghostlander did it and screwed it up, then we should learn from his mistakes and solve the problems found. I know other coins have, and your and his failure to merge their changes has only demonstrated your inability to adapt the coin to a constantly changing market. This is an example of a ‘texan sharpshooter’ logical fallacy, because you cherry picked data points to make your point which are not representative of the overall sample size. It’s also an ‘appeal to authority’ logical fallacy, for those who are keeping score.
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Thanks for that. I presume you know that reducing the coin reward and going 0% PoS will not work in the long run and barely in the short term. Do some research to find out the fate of other coins that have tried to drastically reduce their coin reward to gain market value. Yes, other coins can be seen as an example of trying this even if they are not exactly the same as us.
I can have my two cents and debate the practicality of your suggestions can I not?
My experience is that changing the inflation model can have effects opposite of the intentions. I am a practical person and look for practical solutions and your solution is not practical.
Ghostlander did an excellent job with Orb and greatly improved upon Sunny’s work. It did not work for him as it is not a practical solution, especially in the long run. I discussed this with SunnyKing the creator of Peercoin who also said that 0% PoS was not a good solution. I do not dismiss your ideas by the way, I do pass them to others who are better and know more than me to get feedback and I’m getting very bad feedback on this except for those that seem only interested in monetary reward.
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Well my opinion is that changing the coin minting rate or stopping coin minting entirely is a bad idea.
The model we have is exactly the same structure as litecoin and bitcoin and they have not decided to change the release schedule even though they would potentially benefit even more via decreased availability of coins.
Obviously if the entire community disagrees with me then I’m happy to follow the pack but I don’t think that’s what we have seen so far.
Just to clarify kevlar does not speak for me here and I’m not sure who specifically he is speaking for other than himself and calem. Which is fine I’m just clarifying.
Also as kevlar has said one person does not have the right to make decisions for the entire community but that works both ways.
I’m expecting a barrage of abuse for this post as is kevlars style but I agree with the bitcoin community that keeping the coin release the same is the very bedrock on which the entire blockchain is built. It is about trust.
Also on the fork idea there is no way that I know of to make coins only be available in one fork as they share a common history so any coins I have would be in all forks.
Although two active forks of Feathercoin would confuse users and exchanges and mining pools (obviously only if each fork kept mining).
As a side note I would be interested to explore 0%PoS as an addition to the current PoW as a replacement for ACP.
Anyway those are my thoughts just to show other opinions also exist. I’m not going to get into some drawn out slogging match again as we have done this many times in the team chat and it changes nothing other than piss me off.
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I’m expecting a barrage of abuse for this post as is kevlars style but I agree with the bitcoin community that keeping the coin release the same is the very bedrock on which the entire blockchain is built. It is about trust.
As a side note I would be interested to explore 0%PoS as an addition to the current PoW as a replacement for ACP.
Expecting the micro analysis of your chosen words :)
Peercoin destroys the mining fees in PoS blocks, an incentive to 0% PoS is if we keep those fees. Ghostlander does this for Orb now. I do not think that it would be incentive enough but lets discuss.
