FTC's future
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I’m expecting a barrage of abuse for this post as is kevlars style but I agree with the bitcoin community that keeping the coin release the same is the very bedrock on which the entire blockchain is built. It is about trust.
As a side note I would be interested to explore 0%PoS as an addition to the current PoW as a replacement for ACP.
Expecting the micro analysis of your chosen words :)
Peercoin destroys the mining fees in PoS blocks, an incentive to 0% PoS is if we keep those fees. Ghostlander does this for Orb now. I do not think that it would be incentive enough but lets discuss.
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Thanks for that. I presume you know that reducing the coin reward and going 0% PoS will not work in the long run and barely in the short term. Do some research to find out the fate of other coins that have tried to drastically reduce their coin reward to gain market value. Yes, other coins can be seen as an example of trying this even if they are not exactly the same as us.
I can have my two cents and debate the practicality of your suggestions can I not?
My experience is that changing the inflation model can have effects opposite of the intentions. I am a practical person and look for practical solutions and your solution is not practical.
Ghostlander did an excellent job with Orb and greatly improved upon Sunny’s work. It did not work for him as it is not a practical solution, especially in the long run. I discussed this with SunnyKing the creator of Peercoin who also said that 0% PoS was not a good solution. I do not dismiss your ideas by the way, I do pass them to others who are better and know more than me to get feedback and I’m getting very bad feedback on this except for those that seem only interested in monetary reward.
I know no such thing, and you shouldn’t presume my opinion when I’ve not given it.
I have done the research, and I’ve found no comparable situations to draw parallels to. Every other coin that did it did something entirely different than what I’m suggesting.
Of course you can have your two cents. It’s when you go stating your opinion as a foregone conclusion and making assertions that are obviously false that I take objection.
You have no experience changing the inflation model of FTC, nor of other coins, so you cannot possibly make that statement. Nor is what I’m suggesting merely an inflation model change. You can’t just dismiss one part of the solution as being ‘bad’ without considering the whole and how it addresses the problems being faced.
We’re all practical people, and you’ve not made any argument for why this isn’t practical. It will seem perfectly practical when it’s done.
I don’t agree that Ghostlander did a fantastic job with Orb, and the market has an entirely different opinion from you. Just because it didn’t work for him doesn’t make it NOT a practical solution. That’s easily demonstrably false
[Edit: Text partially removed as it violated forum rule: Section 1, Rule 3]
And just because you misrepresented the idea to Sunny King doesn’t mean that it’s an unworkable idea. Nothing about what you just said offers any new insight into the topic.
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Well my opinion is that changing the coin minting rate or stopping coin minting entirely is a bad idea.
The model we have is exactly the same structure as litecoin and bitcoin and they have not decided to change the release schedule even though they would potentially benefit even more via decreased availability of coins.
Obviously if the entire community disagrees with me then I’m happy to follow the pack but I don’t think that’s what we have seen so far.
Just to clarify kevlar does not speak for me here and I’m not sure who specifically he is speaking for other than himself and calem. Which is fine I’m just clarifying.
Also as kevlar has said one person does not have the right to make decisions for the entire community but that works both ways.
I’m expecting a barrage of abuse for this post as is kevlars style but I agree with the bitcoin community that keeping the coin release the same is the very bedrock on which the entire blockchain is built. It is about trust.
Also on the fork idea there is no way that I know of to make coins only be available in one fork as they share a common history so any coins I have would be in all forks.
Although two active forks of Feathercoin would confuse users and exchanges and mining pools (obviously only if each fork kept mining).
As a side note I would be interested to explore 0%PoS as an addition to the current PoW as a replacement for ACP.
Anyway those are my thoughts just to show other opinions also exist. I’m not going to get into some drawn out slogging match again as we have done this many times in the team chat and it changes nothing other than piss me off.
Your opinion is duely noted. Do you have any facts to back up that opinion, or arguments to support it?
The model we have is not the same as bitcoin or litecoin, it’s greatly accelerated. Nor is our market adoption comparable. But if you want to make that comparison, Bitcoin is inflating at a rate that is keeping up with demand. Litecoin doesn’t have nearly the demand, and is inflating much faster, and and FTC is in worse shape. So your argument is only valid when you consider the rates of adoption vs the rate of inflation, which you didn’t do.
We don’t need pack followers, we need free thinkers who are willing to experiment in the face of adversity and go against the established grain. That’s how Bitcoin was created to begin with.
I’m not speaking for anyone except myself.
If being told you’re wrong is abusive, then expect abuse when you’re wrong, because I’m going to tell you when you’re wrong. I’ll also call out and highlight when you’re right. It goes both ways. But we all know you’re very sensitive to being told you’re wrong, Kris, and that you consider it abusive. We accept you for who you are, and even love you for it. *hugs*
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I have a very special meeting with a very important person tomorrow.
I’ll settle this dispute so can everyone just chill it for 24 hours and we can get back to killing each other then hrm?
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I think all the ideas are bad… we must do more research
Lets get core in
then we make our next ground breaking move ok?
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End of argument
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Try to do that research again. There were so many coins that when losing market share they tried to reduce coin reward.
You have no experience changing the inflation model of FTC, nor of other coins, so you cannot possibly make that statement.
Correct. We have never changed the FTC inflation model :D At most we changed the reward to 80 when moving to 60 second blocks while maintaining the overall inflation model. I have seen other coins change their inflation model and have designed other inflation models for other coins before launching. I would say that I am qualified to talk about such thing.
We’re all practical people, and you’ve not made any argument for WHY this ISN’T PRACTICAL. It will seem perfectly practical when it’s done.
Yes I have.
Let me ask you a question then, what incentive is there for anyone to mint a 0% PoS block?
I’ll answer, none. It is a pain to users to lose their coins during stake generation for no gain. So in the long run it if FTC gained massive adoption you might expect people to work around PoS as you cannot force people to mint PoS blocks.
Also what is so wrong with ACP, it is not a long term solution but it saved us from some pretty brutal 51% attacks. It was no use suggesting 0% PoS then and it is still no use now. You would rather have seen FTC sink than lose your integrity? I’m not going to put my personal pride above the well being of Feathercoin nor am I happy to see you mislead the community.
Imma gonna have to say it again. You know that 0% PoS is a bad idea that will not work. Either that or go do some actual research on coins that have reduced their block reward.
I remember WorldCoin started reducing their block reward by 1% a week until they get to 1 coin a block. I do not believe it had the desired effect. Justabitoftime asked me to do the same to Feathercoin but at 2% a week. It was only then that I realised what an idiot I had been for trusting that guy. His next idea was to fork Feathercoin to create Feathercoin2 with more bells and whistles. Kevlar, are you sure you are not Justabitoftime in disguise?
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Let me ask you a question then, what incentive is there for anyone to mint a 0% PoS block?
I’ll answer, none. It is a pain to users to lose their coins during stake generation for no gain. So in the long run it if FTC gained massive adoption you might expect people to work around PoS as you cannot force people to mint PoS blocks.
Wrong on every single account.
First of all incentive: Blockchain security. Transaction confirmations. You missed the most obvious reasons of them all. And, of course, mining rewards.
Secondly, you’re still repeating the same lie about users losing their coins during stake generation, while claiming no gain, both of which have been addressed. So nothing about what you’re saying is true or relevant.
Third, you’ve not considered the ramifications of this model when considered with the rest of the solution. These solutions offer little to nothing when considered on their own, as you insist on doing.
Also what is so wrong with ACP, it is not a long term solution but it saved us from some pretty brutal 51% attacks. It was no use suggesting 0% PoS then and it is still no use now. You would rather have seen FTC sink than lose your integrity? I’m not going to put my personal pride above the well being of Feathercoin nor am I happy to see you mislead the community.
Where do I start? Centralization of authority? The fact that it’s identical to a simple client rule? That it subverts the majority ownership? That it offers no actual security whatsoever as anyone with the resources to perform a 51% attack ALSO has the resources to DDoS the ACP node right off the internet? The fact that the problem can be addressed SOOOO many better ways? PoS was a great suggestion then and it remains one now,
[Edit: Text partially removed as it violated forum rule: Section 1, Rule 3]
Imma gonna have to say it again. You know that 0% PoS is a bad idea that will not work. Either that or go do some actual research on coins that have reduced their block reward.
Not only do I know the opposite to be true, I HAVE done the research and I have told you already that there isn’t a coin that is in this position that has tried anything like what I’m suggesting. If you can find one, please point it out! I’m not suggesting we reduce our block reward, I’m sure other coins have tried that, and without a holistic approach to the entirety of the problem I’m sure they failed. No surprise there!
I remember WorldCoin started reducing their block reward by 1% a week until they get to 1 coin a block. I do not believe it had the desired effect.
I’m sure you’re right, and if what I was suggesting was even REMOTELY comparable to the position Worldcoin is in, or the suggestions I’m making bared even the slightest resemblance to Worldcoin’s solution we would have a comparable model. But it’s not. It’s not even close. It’s not even a little bit similar. You’ve once again committed a straw man logical fallacy.
Justabitoftime asked me to do the same to Feathercoin but at 2% a week. It was only then that I realised what an idiot I had been for trusting that guy. His next idea was to fork Feathercoin to create Feathercoin2 with more bells and whistles. Kevlar, are you sure you are not Justabitoftime in disguise?
Really? Ad hominem attacks? Seriously? I point out logical fallacy after logical fallacy with your arguments, and you resort to name calling?
Are you kidding me???
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Kevlar, are you sure you are not Justabitoftime in disguise?
Take note everyone, this is the level of maturity we’re dealing with here.
Bushstar knows without any doubt that we are different people, but he can’t find an argument that doesn’t rely on misinformation and outright lies to stand on, so he resorts to a personal attack on my character as a way to discredit my opinion by trying to draw parallels between a well reasoned argument and some idiot’s half-baked suggestion… as if what I was saying relied on opinion or my character to be demonstrable.
That’s just playground tactics, Bushstar, and you should be ashamed of yourself for stooping to such obviously bad argument tactics. Grow up.
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Take note everyone, this is the level of maturity we’re dealing with here.
Bushstar knows without any doubt that we are different people, but he can’t find an argument that doesn’t rely on misinformation and outright lies to stand on, so he resorts to a personal attack on my character as a way to discredit my opinion by trying to draw parallels between a well reasoned argument and some idiot’s half-baked suggestion… as if what I was saying relied on opinion or my character to be demonstrable.
That’s just playground tactics, Bushstar, and you should be ashamed of yourself for stooping to such obviously bad argument tactics. Grow up.
It is obvious that I am Justabits second account and Kevlar is in fact Kraken.
But seriously, Kevlar is not Justabit, in fact he was among the first who realized he is a scammer.No wonder Justabit wanted to bann him.
Do not treat Kevlar as human, ignore his ego or your emotion and then the discussion is very interesting.
That is my advice to calm down the discussion.
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But we all know you’re very sensitive to being told you’re wrong, Kris, and that you consider it abusive. We accept you for who you are, and even love you for it. *hugs*
I’m not sure I agree with that. I’ve been wrong many times and I’m usually the first to admit it when that is the case. I don’t take offence to being wrong.
I have however taken offence to the way you choose to speak to me in the past.
Of course you believe your right that’s a given, but to you everything is black and white, every statement is either 100% correct or 0% real life is rarely that exact which is why its so hard to discuss anything with you. We cant know with 100% accuracy what effect making some of these changes will do. We can make educated guesses based on real life comparisons but even then unless all variables are the same its just guesswork.
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Of course you believe your right that’s a given.
No I don’t, and no it isn’t. I don’t believe I’m right, I believe I have sufficient evidence to support my claims. That doesn’t mean I’m right, and I won’t be right until after it’s been demonstrated that I was right. I never claimed to be right, I just pointed out that almost everything Bushstar has said is demonstrably false.
That doesn’t make me right. That’s just makes him demonstrably wrong. This isn’t a matter of opinion, we can use evidence that is entirely independent of everything I’m saying to gauge these things.
but to you everything is black and white
Truth is a binary state: Either something is true, or it isn’t. It isn’t ‘true for you but not for me’, that’s just sloppy logic.
Everything cannot be made true or false. Not everything falls neatly into little buckets of truth or non-truth. For instance, an assertion can be partially true, or true under certain circumstances. Opinions are neither ‘true’ nor ‘false’, they’re simply someones opinion. Beauty is subjective, so something that is beautiful to you may not be to me. There’s literally so many examples that I embrace every day of things being neither black nor white.
So I don’t accept that I see things in only black or white. There’s plenty of room for shades of gray, and in fact all the colors in the spectrum.
every statement is either 100% correct or 0%
Well, the statement you’re making is 0% correct. The statement “Penguins have flippers and not wings, therefore penguins are not birds.” Is 50% correct: They have flippers, but they’re still birds. I’m not sure what the point you’re trying to make here is.
We cant know with 100% accuracy what effect making some of these changes will do. We can make educated guesses based on real life comparisons but even then unless all variables are the same its just guesswork.
Even when we think we have all the variables we still can’t know with 100% accuracy, because there are no guarantees in life. Everything is subject to change, and the only thing you can rely on is that change will occur.
Once again, I have absolutely no idea what point it is you’re trying to make here. This seems WAY off topic.
Why do you insist on attacking me personally? Do you really have nothing of any value to add to the problem solving conversation that we’re trying to have that you feel it necessary to throw your two cents into the ring about how your feels get hurt and make a bunch of assertions about me which don’t represent a thing I’ve said?
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Tom Wujec: Build a tower, build a team: http://youtu.be/H0_yKBitO8M
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I thought I locked this thread?
Right.
Keep on topic or your butt is mine ok?
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I thought I locked this thread?
You did, and the community has rejected your decision to do so. And by community, I don’t mean me.
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That’s a shame.
I’ll just delete it if people keep squabbling.
I’m going to start up a new thread for the Core discussing what were doing with it and what changes to what will be necessary to make the community happy with getting out into the public.
That is all that matters. I would like everyone to put aside their petty differences for now and respect the work Liz has done. We focus on getting in the core pushed out as the standard and should be the only thing been discussed right now.
We can figure out the PoS thing or inflation model debate AFTER that.
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That’s a shame.
I’ll just delete it if people keep squabbling.
I’m going to start up a new thread for the Core discussing what were doing with it and what changes to what will be necessary to make the community happy with getting out into the public.
That is all that matters. I would like everyone to put aside their petty differences for now and respect the work Liz has done. We focus on getting in the core pushed out as the standard and should be the only thing been discussed right now.
We can figure out the PoS thing or inflation model debate AFTER that.
No censorship or locking threads please.
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The inflation model stays but compromises will have to be made.
I’m searching for a solution in PoS or a modification to PoW itself where it requires a modifaction to P2Pool.
I will never censor. But if people can’t behave themselves I will lock as many threads as I deem fit.
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Its been a legitimate debate. At least everyone can see where we stand.
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To add something, I remember Piggy coin rised in value nicely after changing emmision model.
Not sure in what state are they now.
And the other is Gridcoin, changed total number of coins 10x up, but old coins had to be burned (exchanged for new).
Gridcoin seems ok.
